Three-language formula for national disintegration

The National Curriculum Framework 2005 has "reaffirmed its commitment" to the implementation of the "three-language formula" across India as per the National Policy on Education. The intent of the policy is "national integration". The Deccan Herald reports:
The formula includes the study of a modern Indian language, preferably one of the southern languages, apart from Hindi and English in the Hindi-speaking states, and of Hindi along with the regional language and English in non-Hindi speaking states.
The very wording of this statement is wrong. Hindi is being implicitly assumed as "non regional" while languages like Kannada, Tamil and Marathi are being termed as "regional". Welcome to the world's largest democracy where everyone is treated equally, but where speakers of Hindi are treated a little bit more equally. A little bit which is enough to wipe off speakers of Indian languages other than Hindi from the face of this planet.

Hindi imposition is ethnic subjugation of most of India

Even if one were to agree, for argument's sake, that learning an extra language over and above English and the language of the state fosters "national integration", why should one of the languages be compulsorily Hindi, a regional language? Why at all should Hindi be taught all over India? To offer formal channels and methods of migration and ethnic subjugation of non-Hindi speakers across India who form the majority of the Indian population? To perpetuate the baseless argument that Hindi can unite people all over India? To perpetuate the feeling in non-Hindi speakers that Hindi-speakers are Indians of a greater God? India cannot achieve "national integration" using Hindi. Hindi can only achieve "national disintegration". If there's any language which will find acceptance all over India, it is English. It's high time policy makers understand this basic ground reality and stop imposing Hindi on non-Hindi speakers.

The EU would disintegrate overnight if such a move is made

Can you imagine a three-language formula applied within the European Union (EU)? If any such thing ever happens, it will never be the case that one regional language - say Slovak - will be imposed on all of Europe. Any such attempt would be termed undemocratic, and states on which such impositions are made would vehemently oppose it. If the imposition continues, you will soon have the European Union disintegrate. The choice of languages should be left to the students and their parents. A Belgian may learn Flemish, French and English if he wishes. Nobody has the authority to impose the Slovak language on him!

Learners need freedom to choose 3rd language in this formula

Similarly, in India, nobody has the authority to impose Hindi on non-Hindi speakers. Even if we were to allow the three-language formula, Kannadigas must have the option to choose the third language of their choice. Maybe we pick Bengali. Maybe we pick Tulu. Maybe we pick Marathi. Maybe we pick Tamil. But why should we be forced to pick one of the most unendowed and unimportant of Indian languages to Kannadigas - Hindi?

Formula a vehicle for undeserved representation to Tamil?

Also, what is the guarantee that in the proposed scheme Kannada will be learnt by North Indians at all? There's already the feeling among North Indians that south India speaks only Tamil because they created most of the noise when the seeds of Hindi Imposition were sown. There are North Indians who feel that the Vijayanagara Empire was built by a Tamil! What is the guarantee that North Indians who learn Tamil as per the proposal won't come to Karnataka on the "palace on wheels for hindiwallahs" and expect Kannadigas to know either Hindi or their pidgin-Tamil?

People are more aware now, amend the policy

The times are a-changing. The speakers of every Indian language are realizing that they have been subjected to Hindi imposition. They're realizing that they can't take this lying down anymore. Kannadigas are realizing that Kannada is not inferior in any way to Hindi, and that if at all any language were inferior to another, it's Hindi which is inferior to Kannada because of its recent birth, lack of any solid history, and because its literature counts to a naught in comparison to Kannada literature.

Hindi imposition is ethnic crime. The only thing it fosters is "national disintegration". It's high time this three-language formula is amended to remove Hindi imposition. The pros and cons of a two-language formula (language of the state plus English) versus a three-language formula (language of the state plus English plus choice of any other Indian language) should be carefully analyzed. There's no point in jumping to conclusions. That too, the same old Hindi-imperialisitic ones.

For the DH story, read: Govt committed to 3-language formula for national integration

31 comments:

Clangorous said...

Well said....This is the right time that we South Indians oppose this impositon. Tamil Nadu was exempted all these while from Hindi Imposition... gotto see how well this policy gets implemented there. Also as you have rightly pointed out.. whats the guarantee that Kannada would get equal recognition.. as we have already seen the arm twisting attitude of the Tamil Nadu politicians in all matters be it cauvery.., hogenakkal.. kannada getting classical status..etc.

Forget these Hindians.. one of my colleague who is a Marathi once made fun of Kannada by pointing to a Chinese script saying the script looks like Kannada.. I gave it back immediately saying that Kannada script is one of the most beautiful and near to perfection script where in one can write what they speak...have pronounciations well defined and any kind of words/letters could be represented unambiguously ... On an other instance when i was wearing a T-shirt with GP Rajaratnam's poem at the back.. again he showed his indifference by saying how can we understand whats written.. and what language is it.. I gave a fitting reply saying why doesnt he learn the language if he wants to read it.. . Seriously I never expected a Marathi to show such indifference to Kannada. As though, they dont know Kannada is the official language of Karnataka. I make sure to oppose any kind of Hindi imposition by non-kannadigas by replying to them only in English even though I was forced to learn Hindi in primary school. A non-kannadiga assumes that he/she can get away with not speaking/respecting kannada by imposing hindi on kannadigas. I urge all my fellow kannadigas and all non-hindians to follow this and see the results.. these pseudo nationalists whoever they are hindians or non-hindians will automatically start speaking in English... after all the job/work that we do requires English and not Hindi.

Most of these people show their indifference by not even pronouncing Kannada properly.. they call it Kannad... and they expect their regional language Hindi to be understand by all and spoken by all... heights of arrogance and imperialistic attitude.

Anonymous said...

I am a Tamilian .

I don't agree with Kannada not getting equal recognition . As far as i know, North Indians hate Tamil more than anything in the world . Bashing Chennai and TN is their hobby . So, i don't think Hindi speakers will opt for Tamil .Besides , without knowing to speak Tamil you can't read it . It's tough . But who cares ? I don't want some uneducated barbarian north indian coolie who's pastime is raping women and staring at women to learn my language . Hindi is a regional as Tamil, Telugu or Kannada .

Anonymous said...

I am a Kannadiga.

If the formula includes the imposition of a so called modern Indian language along with the bloody Hindi imposition, then I will study about "European Union disintegration" and educate people about it.

Its best to have INDIAN UNION aka EU - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

Anonymous said...

U is Imposing Hindi.... It is People Like U afraid of Learning new Lang.....
No 1 Cares what People Speak....No 1 Hates Tamil....or Tamil people..Grow Up

Non-hindi Indian said...

I can't agree more

Anonymous said...

I really appreciate the respect and affection for your language, Kannada and your opposition to the imperialistic Hindi(wallahs).

At the same time, You seem to think very high of Kannada Script. What is the difference between Kannada Script and Hindi (Devenagari Script) except for the shape of the letters? Almost same. Besides, much of your vocabulary is just adopted / derived words from the North (Sanskrit).

Moreover, you claim your script can express any pronounciation, letter or word unambiguously. But, both the scripts can't write the word 'Tamil' correctly. 'Tamil' as written in English is also incorrect. I think no script can be perfect.

Anyway, lot of cheers to you in y(our) or even 'namma' fight against the Hindi imperialism.

Regards

SomeOne said...

Hey Mr or Miss or Mrs Hesarilladavre, (Anonymous)

Only a person who does not know about Kannada and Samskrita scripts can write a comment like u have written. Kannada similar to Samskrita script is like saying Japanese hiragana is similar to Devnagari.

Kannada words are not derived from North-Samskrita. Infact Samskrita is not just north-Indian. Even to this day, there a village : MuttaLLi in Karnataka where people speak only samskrita. Please get your facts right. I do not know on what basis you make the claim that much of Kannada vocabulary is from Samskrita. Only the modern day literature Kannada has lot of Samskrita. Even Tamil has it. That does not mean Tamil or Kannada was derived from samskrita.

Yes, using Kannada one can write what they say. "Tamil" can be written properly in Kannada using a letter which has been dropped in modern day usage of Kannada. The dropping of this letter was because the words which used to use this form of "L" are no longer used in that form.
If you can check on net, Samskrita is a perfect language and Kannada is next perfect to it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong

Jugga said...

Kannada is a Dravidian language and Sanskrit is an Indo European language. There is nothing linguistically common to Kannada and Sanskrit.

Sanskrit was not a spoken language in Karnataka anywhere in the last 3,500 years. The one village in which Sanskrit is supposed to be spoken in Karnataka is more hype than reality. Sanskrit was introduced into Karnataka as the language of spirituality. It was never spoken in day-to-day life even by those who learnt it to gain spiritual knowledge.

SomeOne,

It's absolutely unscientific to claim that Sanskrit is a perfect language and Kannada is next perfect. The word "perfect" is used very loosely by you. People who understand langauges - linguists - know that there is no such thing as one language being more "perfect" than another. Kannada is as perfect as any language.

You're getting confused between the Sanskrit language and its grammar. The grammar of the Sanskrit language as written by Panini is a very scientific piece of work. Panini established a new way of scientifically encoding languages. That's all. So in short, it's Panini's grammar which is scientific. There's nothing specially scientific about Sanskrit.

Also, it's the grammar of Kannada as known today which is any less scientific than Panini's Sanskrit grammar. As we speak, Dr. D N Shankar Bhat is coming up with great scientific works like "Kannadakke Beku Kannadadde Vyakarana" to bring the same scientific fervor into Kannada Grammar.

Anonymous said...

Dear Someone

I didn't say Kannada and Devanagari Scripts are same in their shape. I would like to repeat they are almost same with regard to the phonology (the sounds) except for the additional long vowels of 'yae' as in 'Yaenu' and 'Oo' as in 'Ohm' and the additional consonant of 'lla' in Kannada. These additional letters are in line with the other South Indian languages including Tamil but not found in North Indian languages including Sanskrit and Hindi. Please tell me how they are different phonetically.

I didn't say the entire Kannada vocabulary is from Sanskrit, but definitely a considerable number of them. Also, such adopted/derived words from Sanskrit are considered to be (more) perfect than their southern (Kannada) counterparts.

As Mr. Jugga said, Kannada is a dravidian language and Sanskrit is an Indo-European language along with all other North Indian languages. Even if Sanskrit is spoken in a single village in Karnataka, it can not become South Indian. After all, English is spoken all over India. It doesn't mean it is Indian.

I agree with you on the use of form of the Kannada 'llla' as found in the word 'Tamil'. I have also studied 'llla' was only dropped at a later point of time. Anyway, as of now, it is lacking.

Sanskrit - the perfect language is only a rhetoric. It has also limitations and anomalies. The simplest example would be the missing long vowels and its inability to write the word 'Tamil'.

Regards

SomeOne said...

Jugga:
Any one wud say a language is perfect because of its grammer.. without grammer, the language cant exist. Thats why I said Samskrita is "A" perfect language.

Anonymous:
If one is not able to write words of some other language in Samskrita, why will it become imperfect. Any ways, lets not discuss the perfectness. More-over, just as samskrita is not south-Indian, it is not even north-Indian. That was my point.

I am not even a supporter of Samskrita-imposition in place of Hindi. For me Kannada is sufficient and is necessary. I do not want to even say that one Indian language is better than other. All are Indian and all must survive. So we need to bring Kannada to its full power in Karnataka... We need to oppose Hindi-imposition in Karnataka

Clangorous said...

@ Anonymous,
Letters were dropped from Kannada due to lack of usage or difficulty in pronounciations. Also the spoken form of kannada does not stress on lot of mahapranas.. thats why in the course of time letters have been dropped out of Kannada. I personally oppose removal of these letters just to make it easy for other language people to pronounce easily (which is the main reason I feel these letters were removed). There is nothing wrong in learning few more letters if Kannada is rich enough to have it in its script. Due to the removal of letters kids nowadays are in an ambiguous state, which letter to use when. I feel all letters should exist to make kids understand the difference in writing and pronouncing those letters.

Coming to your argument of any language not able to denote the word 'Tamil' currectly. I feel lot of common letters like 'Ka', 'Ga', 'Ha', 'La' are written as per the context in Tamil. So words like 'Mahesh' are written and pronounced as 'Magesh'... 'Mohan' as 'Mogan' etc.. . This is what I meant about the Kannada script being able to write what you speak. So based on these examples, dont you feel there are lack of letters to express the correct pronounciations in Tamil ?. This is also the reason I personally oppose dropping of letters from a language like Kannada which has individual letters for each pronounciations.

Clangorous said...

@ Anonymous,
Coming to your argument of any language lacking letters to write the word 'Tamil' correctly. Its not that Kannada did/does not have letters.. few letters were dropped because of lack of usage/difficulty in pronouncing/appeasing non-kannadigas to make it easy for them to learn. I personally oppose removal of letters when all it requires is to learn to read/write few more letters. Spoken form of kannada in most of the dialects do not have stress on mahapranaas...thats also one of the reason few letters are being dropped. I feel if a language is rich enough to have letters to pronounce/write perfectly .. those letters should not be dropped unless those letters are not used at all. This is creating ambiguity amongst kids to decide which letter to use when...

Coming to the argument of Kannada having lot of words/phonetics/ similar to Sanskrit.. it was existent in Tamil too... it was purposefully removed from Tamil to make it different/free from influences of other languages. A Language always gets richer if it takes and at the same time gives words/phonetics to/from any other language.

You are giving an example of not able to write the word 'Tamil' correctly... but what about 'n' number of words with letters like 'Ka', 'Ga', 'Ha'which are written/read as per the context in Tamil.. For Ex ; ' Mahesh' is written and pronounced as 'Magesh'..' Mohan' as 'Mogan' .. 'Taj Mahal' as 'Daj Magal' ? ... dont you feel these are mispronounced from what it is intended to be pronounced ?... This is what I meant by Kannada having the script to write what we speak/pronounce .

Harish said...

Immediate changes need to be made in trains operating in karnataka to have cautionary messages in kannada as well, apart from hindi and english. Indian railways by writing warnings in only hindi and english seems to think only the north indians lives need protecting and saving and kannadigas and marathis can die , nothing to worry about it.

Citibank atms also have put cautionary notices only in hindi and english. Their atms dont even offer kannada as a choice.

SomeOne said...

Please check how much Hindi is being loaded into all our banks and lic offices.. who makes all these decisions to push hindi down our throats.. I request all people to write to banks such as SBI, SBM, etc etc to have forms in Kannada-English rather than Hindi-English.. After all, its our right to know what we are filling up, that can be achieved only if its in our language. India is not only for Hindi speakers, its everyones mother land

Anonymous said...

Dear Clangorous

As far as the missing letters/symbols for the aspirated and voiced sounds/letters of ka,cha,tha,pa are concerned, Tamil has well defined rules of prnounciations. The basic sound of ka is used when used at the beginning of a word, eg. kann (eye); kka is used when preceded by ik; eg. pakkam (near/side), ga is used when preceded by nasal sounds of 'nga, nja, etc. eg. thangam (gold); ha is used when used in the middle of a word without preceded by ka, cha,tha,pa or nasal sounds, eg. pahal (day) or mahan (son). However, the voiced and aspirated sounds can not be the first sound/letter of a word in Tamil. For eg. Ganesh is to be written as Kanesh only.

Other Indian languages based on the Sanskrit/Devanagari script has separate symbols for each of the variation of the base sound. Though they use a separate symbol for these varied sounds, they accept that the basic sound/letter is ka and so on for other letters. Ofcourse, it might have been easier if separate symbols/letters were used in Tamil also for these variations of basic sounds.

But, even other Indian languages also got this limitation with respect to some other sounds/letters including (ra, rra), (la,lha,zha) and (na not differentiated between its use in the beginning, the end and the middle of a word) which are more clearly defined in Tamil. For eg. even in Hindi, na is normally pronounced as just 'na' in 'nagar' but pronounced as 'ndh' in the word 'Hindi' itself but it is differentiated in Tamil with two na as in 'enna' (what) and 'entha' (which). BTW, I am not referring to 'nna' at all as in 'kann'. Similary, the word 'Bangra' is written with ra at the end but pronounced as voiced ra but without a separate symbol for voiced ra because when ra follows a nasal sound, it will naturally/automatically sound voiced. This natural/automatic formation of sounds is the basis for not having separate letters for voiced and aspirated sounds in Tamil. For eg. even if you write thang+kam it will be automatically pronounced as thangam, not thangkam. Pl. try it.

What do you want to say about 'Kannada' and 'Hale Gannada' wherein 'Kannada' is pronounced differently in different places? I would say it is also due to the natural/automatic formation of sounds on combining some letters/sounds.

Moreover, the words like Ganesh, Mahesh, Mohan, Taj Mahal are all not basically Tamil words, but Sanskrit words. However, it is to be accepted that Tamil lacks the letters to write such words from other languages though it has enough letters to write its own sounds and words.

Even I feel Kannada should not have dropped south Indian sounds/letters like rra, llla even as it has adopted letters for voiced and aspirated sounds kka, ga, gha etc. as in Sanskrit. It is for your information that Malayalam script (not shapes but sounds) has all that of Kannada plus the letters of rra and llla.

Regards

Anonymous said...

Dear Clangorous

It will certainly enrich our language when we borrow/lend/share the features of languages. However, it should not be done in the name/context of superiority of some language over another language. The pro-Sanskrit people had overdone it in Tamil by trying to use Sanskrit words even when equivalent or even better words are available in Tamil and also had gone to the extant of calling Tamil a 'Neecha Basha' against Sanskrit, a 'Deva Basha' according to them. They tried to attribute some words of Tamil/Dravidian origin like 'Neer' (water) to Sanskrit just to insult Tamil and to uphold the superiority of Sanskrit.

Such a superiority complex/attitude of the pro-Sanskrit people had only finally led to the movement of purification of Tamil from the Sanskrit words. In spite of it, some Sanskrit words are still used in Tamil but are mostly restricted to Sprituality. Like other Indian languages, Tamil is also influenced by languages like Persian, Arabic, English, etc. in addition to Sanskrit. At the same time, most of these other language words are distinctly identifiable as non-Tamil words.

Regards

Clangorous said...

@ SomeOne,

Do not equate SBM with the other nationalised banks.. SBM atleast has their website in Kannada and I am sure Kannada has got a better place in SBM compared to other Nationalised Banks. On the contrary you should experience the IVR of SBI in Kannada.. they literally massacre the language by making use of a Tamilian to speak Kannada... even though we choose Kannada as the service language.. call invariably lands in Chennai and they say only English can be provided for service...I have even given them the feedback to have Kannada operators for service in Kannada.. but no use... issue is most of psuedo intellect kannadigas find it degrading to speak Kannada to show off their profess in English. Due to this other Kannadigas who would love to get service in their language get denied of their customer rights.

@ Anonymous,

That is the same thing I was mentioning... letters in Tamil are pronounced completely based on the context, preceding and proceeding words. Agreed the example of words I gave are non-tamil words but they are common names which people use in day to day life. Also dont you feel because of the MTI ( Mother Tongue Influence ) Tamilians tend to mispronounce words not only in other languages but even in English. Now dont tell me English is non-important.. It is indeed become our bread and butter....and we can easily see the mispronounciations For Ex : Presentation is pronounced as Prescentation... Busy is pronounced as Bissy.... This is not only with Tamil MTI.. it is existent in other MTI too with different pronounciations.. say in Malyalam : For Ex : Temple is pronounced as Demble..., Lawyer as : Loyerr.... etc.. . So its not only with letters ...even pronounciations influence the way a person expresses words in other languages,English as well.

Anonymous said...

Dear Clangorous

I had only accepted the limitations of Tamil with regard to the use of voiced and aspirated sounds. However, one need not be conscious about the context as the words will be pronounced naturally correctly due to the particular combination of sounds/letters as in 'thangam'.

But, you have not told anything about similar problem in other languages with reference to some other letters and also about 'Kannada' and 'Hale Gannada'.

As you said, some Tamils tend to mispronounce some English sounds due to MTI. It is mainly because English is also a Indo-European language like Sanskrit and can be corrected with proper guidance. At the same time, MTI in English exists among the speakers of Kannada and Telugu also as in Driveru, Pennu, Hospitalu, Specialistu, etc.

My point is no language, including Sanskrit, is more perfect or as perfect as the hypothetical perfect language.

Regards

SomeOne said...

@Clangorous
I agree about SBM.. but there is a long way to go.. All the forms that we get in banks have instruction in english and hindi only...Why is it that these so called "Indian" companies are all like this. If you compare HP/IBP/BP etc with Shell petrol pumps, tha difference is obvious. Shell has everything in Kannada.. no english also.. Thats the right way to provide services to Kannadigas. These international companies are very sensitive to the diaspora that India offers. But the Indian companies neglect everythin in name of hindi

Clangorous said...

@ Anonymous,

I would most appreciate if any one can point out the same kind of ambiguity in writing and pronouniciations in Kannada... I completely agree no language is better than the other.. each have its own pros and cons.... but what you have mentioned about pronouniciations coming correctly based on the context holds good only for the people whose mother tongue is Tamil and have been conversing in it from their birth... What I was trying to convey is .. if a non-tamilian wants to learn Tamil right from the basics like letters, words ... and then on to pronouncing them based on the context.. he/she would surely find out ambiguous to write same letters to express words but pronounce it as per the context... I am sure any one would love to spread their language to people who are interested to learn... so in that context a learner has to go through so much of ambiguity... . A language is easier to learn if its simple and unambiguous..

Coming to your examples of the MTI words for Kannada which you have mentioned ... those are used when conversing in Kannada.. they are Kannadised form of english words with a 'u' added at the end.. The examples I gave are the words which are pronounced wrongly while trying to communicate in English... I am sure none of my fellow kannadigas would use words like Driversu, Hospitalsu...etc while conversing in English... . I would appreciate if you can give examples of the words mis-pronounced based on Kannada MTI while conversing in English.... Having an Indian accent is different ...mispronouncing words is different... Indians have the most neutral english... thats why even customer facing jobs are getting outsourced here.

@ SomeOne

Whatever you have mentioned is so true... Its high time we demand service in our language.. its the fundamental right for any customer to demand service in his/her language.

Anonymous said...

Dear Clangorous

Context based use of letters/sounds are available in Kannada too. Some examples follow-

1) ನಂಧಿ (nandhi) and ನಂಬಿ (nambi): the same symbol is used for two different sounds. what about ಚಂದ್ರಾಯನ್?

2) Why Kannada and Hale gannada? - two sounds for the same word.

3) http://karnatique.blogspot.com/2008/03/concept-of-h-and-l-kannada-disease.html : It has discussed about the presence of diglossia in Kannada too especially with regard to the use of aspirated and unaspirated consonants, which means context based use also.

The advantage of Kannada script is the presence of separate symbols for voiced and aspirated sounds though it lacks a few south Indian consonants. It is very similar to all major languages of India except Tamil. The fact is all Indian languages except Tamil use basically the same script with regard to the sounds (phonology) though different shapes are used for letters in different languages. So, all languages except Tamil will have the credit of not being ambiguous, not Kannada alone. But, I would only say the level of ambiguity is only less in these languages, not completely out.

As far as the MTI on English is concerned, you and your friends without any MTI must be from urban area. Bengaluru or Mysooru alone can not be Karnataka. The MTI problem is usually prominent among the people from rural area. This rural-urban divide is common in Tamil Nadu also.

Regards

Clangorous said...

@ Anonymous,

1) First example which you have given are two different words with two different meanings , I did not find anything ambiguous between these two words :

ನಂದಿ : meaning sacred bull of Shiva ...

ನಂಬಿ : meaning asking a person to trust him/her..

though both words start with 'ನಂ' ending letters : 'ದಿ' and 'ಬಿ' both are pronounced differently (again due to union) .. not based on any contexts and both words as mentioned above mean different things. Did not get the context/ambiguity in 'ಚಂದ್ರಾಯನ್' which you mentioned.. kindly elloborate... correct form of writing that word is : 'ಚಂದ್ರಯಾನ/ಚಂದ್ರಯಾಣ '

2) Coming to your second example , perhaps you are talking about the 'Ka' in Kannada and 'Ga' in Halegannada.. First of all Hale and gannada should not be written seperately... its written combined as in 'ಹಳೆಗನ್ನಡ' which is due to union of letters (ಸಂದಿ)if these words are written seperately it would still be written as 'ಹಳೆಯ','ಕನ್ನಡ'. So please elloborate on the ambiguity in the context/meaning in these words ?

3) Do not say all languages except Tamil will have the credit of not being ambiguous ... I will give you a simple example in Hindi

In hindi both Yesterday and Tommorrow are expressed as 'Kal' (कल)..appropriate meaning is taken again based on the context what a person is trying to convey... but Kannada has different words to depict the same : 'ನೆನ್ನೆ : Yesterday' , 'ನಾಳೆ : Tommorrow' .. Even Tamil/Telugu have different words to depict them... Coming to all scripts except tamil being the same... there are words/letters which are inherent to a language which may or maynot exist in other languages. For ex : Hindi does not have lot of mahapraanas similar to Kannada... Sanskrit whose script hindi uses had those mahapranas.. but it was removed from hindi.. .

I am sure even Tamil had lot of these letters similar to other languages.. but as you have mentioned in one of your posts .. Tamil was so called purified trying to be different from other languages...when ultimately the fact is even Tamil originated out of Proto Dravidian roots with Brahmi script as the base.

Coming to the MTI part... I never differentiated based on Urban/Rural area.. I was all the while trying to depict the wrong pronounciations with examples due to MTI... even most Urban Tamilian/Malayalee mispronounce due to MTI .. you can refer the examples I have given... I have clearly mentioned that having an Indian accent is different and mispronouncing words is different

Anonymous said...

Dear Clangorous

1) With reference to ನಂದಿ and ನಂಬಿ, I would like to explain more-

ನಂದಿ:na n dhi: the intervening sound/letter is the half sound of ನ
ನಂಬಿ:na m bi: the intervening sound/letter is the half sound of ಮ
ಬೆಂಗ(ಳೂರು): be n ga: the intervening ... is the half sound of ಙ
ಆಂಜ(ನೇಯಾ): Aa n ja ne ya: the inven... is the half sound of ಞ

The above example clearly shows you use the same symbol for half sounds of all nasal sounds of ಙ ಞ ಣ ನ ಮ and their pronounciation is determined by the following letter, which shows the pronounciation is context based. But, you would say it is due to the union of sounds/letters. Whatever we call it, both are same.

2) ಕನ್ನಡ and ಹಳೆಗನ್ನಡ are example of pronouncing the same word 'Kannada' differently in different places, determined by the context of or union of preceding or following letters.

3) ಚಂದ್ರಯಾನ is an example of using the nasal sound 'na' as 'na' itself at the end and as n+dh (i.e. differently) when used as half sound whereas the half sound should sound as 'in', similar to the half sound of 'ka' as 'ik'.

Tamil follows the same logic/rule of 'context of/union of preceding or following letter' to represent the voiced sounds like 'ga, ja, dda, da and ba'. However, Tamil doesn't use the voiced sounds in the beginning of words and doesn't have/use aspirated sounds like 'gha, jha,ddha,dha and bha' at all.

The point is Tamil uses 'context' for voiced sounds and Kannada for nasal sounds. Ironically, Tamil doesn't use 'context' for nasal sounds as illustrated below with the same words as the above words in Kannada-

ந ந் தி:na n dhi: the intervening letter/... is the half sound of ನ
ந ம் பி:na m bi: the intervening letter/... is the half sound of ಮ
பெ ங் க(ளூர்): be n ga: the interven... is the half sound of ಙ
ஆ ஞ் ச(னேயா): Aa n ja ne ya: the ... is the half sound of ಞ

As you can easily see (you need not even know Tamil alphabets, if interested, refer to Wikipedia), the second letter in all these words are different and actually the half letters of the corressponding full letters. In Tamil, a dot over a letter makes it half letter and no dot means full sound/letter.

As in ಹಳೆಗನ್ನಡ, Tamil sounds also inflect when ka,cha,ta,tha and pa are combined with unstructured consonants of ya,ra,la,lla,llla, and va.

In short, when the structured consonants 'ka, cha, ta, tha and pa' are combined with the nasal sounds of 'nga, nja, nna, na and ma' and the unstructured consonants of 'ya,ra,la,lla and va', they inflect and produce voiced and aspirated sounds. Tamil has no letters for voiced and aspirated sounds and Kannada has. But, Kannada uses same symbol for half letters of nasal sounds while Tamil uses different letters for half letters nasal sounds. Additionally, Kannada uses the sibilant letters of sha, ksha and sa whereas Tamil uses a few more South Indian/Dravidian specific letters of rra and llla.

The above discussion is applicable not only to Kannada but all other Indian languages except Tamil because all Indian languages including Kannada except Tamil use basically the same script phonetically but with different shapes.

Regards and Happy New Year

Anonymous said...

Dear Clangorous

Regarding your remark about 'Kal' (कल) in Hindi, I too agree that South Indian languages are better than Hindi in many ways. However, we are concentrating only on the script of the languages but not discussing about vocabulary, structure, syntax, etc. That is why I said all Indian languages except Tamil will have the same script as well as credit.

As far the purfication of Tamil from Sanskrit is concerned, only most of the Sanskrit words were removed or rather deliberately avoided whereas the letters for the borrowed sounds from Sanskrit are still retained because Tamil has still got some Sanskrit vocabulary especially with regard to Sprituality. However, unlike Kannada, these borrowed Sanskrit sounds/letters are just few and include 'ja, sha, sa, ha and ksha'. In any Tamil text book, they would be separated from the other Tamil letters under the heading of 'Sanskrit/North Language Letters'. The purpose of the purification was not to be deliberately different from other languages but to restore its original state, whatsoever it was.

Regarding MTI, it must be a fact that Tamils have more of this problem mainly because of the absence of the voiced and aspirated letters in their language. But, I don't know why Malayalees should have it when they also follow a script similar to Kannada and other Indian languages. But one can not deny the influence of 'u or oo' in English by Kannadigas and Telugus.

Regards

Clangorous said...

@ Anonymous,
I was not even getting to the depths of vocabulary and syntax... I was just referring the differences between the written form and the spoken form which exists in Tamil... while whatever writen can be spoken and vice versa when it comes to Kannada... I guess we are going too offtrack with respect to the article... and one last parting shot... its not that Kannada did not have its own vocubalary alternative to the ones borrowed from sanskrit... just that our people who were involved in writing Kannada Grammar... got too much influenced from the sanskrit grammar... and developed kannada grammar on those lines .... you should read the articles which came recently on 'enguru' the kannada form of this blog... about Dr Shankara Butta's books on kannada having its own grammar...about what needs to be done to learn the correct form of simpler kannada...

Sundar said...

I am a Tamil , the reason Hindi Imperialism has grown this far after independence, is because Tamils were the only linguistic minority group protesting against Hindi imperialism. They didn't get enough support from other linguistic groups. I am glad Kannadigas have started realising that.

SomeOne said...

@Sundar,

There was enough protest even in Karnataka when there were protests In Tamil Nadu against Hindi being made national language. But the mistak tht was done after the protest was the Karnataka agreed to 3 language policy. More than that, Karnataka did not get a full fledged regional party which would solely stand for Karnataka. The problem is in the education system which imparts false knowledge that hindi is national language. If govt of Karnataka can stop teaching hindi in schools, everytthing will fall into place

nEsara said...

@Clangorous

These marathis are duraabhimanis. They know and can understand kannada, infact marathis is nothing but half kannada words, most of their places names are based on kannada words and half of their populace is of kannada origin, so does shivaji. their marathi language does not event have its own script, and he comments on kannada looking like chinese.. so next remind that bevarsi of these facts.

also somebody said its not possible to write tamil in kannada. a few consonants and letters have vanished due to non-usage in kannada but they are available on paper. and how many words can be written in tamil script is the biggest joke of the millenium.. konga fanatics will claim tamil is the best language, but their script cant even differentiate b/w radhika & radiga.. or ganesa or kanesha.. lol

on the comments about kannada having lot of sanskrit words, its true, and this must stop cos sanskrit is no superior to kannada.. bring back our kannada words in place of sakkada..

Saravanan said...

I agree with the original article. It only requires common sense and a civilized reasoning for anyone to ask just 2 questions- Why a third language and why Hindi for ppl of other mother tongues? I have been tired of educating the educated ppl that Hindi is not a national language. It would be non-democratic and unjust for a diverse country like this to have a single national language. Imposing Hindi as part of the education system is non-democratic, unjust and a crime against other languages of this country.

I am a Tamil and recently moved to Bengaluru and I am making conscious effort to learn and speak Kannada outside office, because I know it is only fair to learn the language of my livelihood. I was surprised by how Hindi speaking Hindians dont make the least effort to learn the regional language, and in my opinion, this is mostly because, the locals encourage them by responding back to them in Hindi. At a macro level, I think this is because, Hindi has been imposed on the school children at a innocent stage and so they naturally grow up thinking they should be knowing and speaking Hindi.

I am now looking for a school to put my child where she can learn both Tamil and Kannada as languages, but it is sad that I could not find a school where Hindi is not imposed as a language leaving me with no other choice than giving her the criminal burden of learning a totally unwanted language. What is more pity is that many schools/institutions too wrongly believe Hindi is a national language. I am also rethinking to send her to Tamilnadu for education instead of being another victim of the Hindi imposition here.

I hope that some day the criminal 3 language policy is dropped in Karnataka and spare the children the burden of learning what is imposed by a unfair system devised by some Hindian up above.

kennady said...

I love this article...Tamil language is a Dravidian languages owing to its geographical expansion, for it has spread beyond the frontiers of India. Apart from being the language of forty million people in Tamil Nadu it is the spoken and written language of several millions of Tamils living in Ceylon, Burma, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, South Africa, Fiji Islands and Mauritius.

Rani said...

Devanagari has its own flaws. Telugu and Kannada are more efficient in writing clearly. In Hindi script, you cannot write 'West' - it is written as 'Waste'.

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