O Copenhagen!

I've been paying close attention to the political noises being made by heads of state in relation to climate change in the run up to "Copenhagen" (or the United Nations Climate Change Conference to be held from 7th - 18th December 2009), and to say the least, the behavior of the developed countries led by the United States of America hurts me deeply.


(Cartoon courtesy: Sunita Narain)

As if to openly advertise the lie that with material wealth comes spiritual knowledge, an attempt is being made by those errant states to teach ethics to India - like the ethics of physical restraint taught by a chronic rapist. Fortunately, India's response to the vulgar requests made by the USA remains praiseworthy at the time of writing this article.

Reading about this whole issue, I learnt that the unquenchable thirst for material comfort of the developed nations of this world (the foremost among them being the United States of America) has finally started hitting back at them. That greed has so destroyed the world's environment by pumping so much Carbon Dioxide (CO2) into the air that the resultant global warming is threatening to create worldwide floods, hurricanes, loss of rainwater, famines and other calamities which one can no longer describe as natural. In fact, a new term has been coined to describe it all: climate change.

Scientists agree that economic development is an exothermic process: apparently, nobody has devised a way of becoming richer or increasing one's material comfort without heating up the environment. If you made yourself happy today by increasing your material possessions, you have done your part in heating up the world. As an aside, while burning fossil fuels (or to be more clear, running all those gas-guzzling cars in the USA) is known to be the single most important reason for global warming, I wonder if the human feeling of happiness derived out of material possessions is itself exothermic in nature (not counting the increase in temperature due to environmental changes). It would be an interesting piece of scientific information which has important spiritual connotations. But I digress.

Since the greedy nations of this world have already dumped sufficient CO2 into the environment to make themselves hurriedly arrange for conferences such as Copenhagen early next month with no real persuasion from the rest of the world, I cannot but conclude that hidden in their environmental research labs must lie estimates of serious catastrophes looming large on their own countries very soon. I suspect that scientists in the USA have fine-grain estimates of which US cities will be hit by how many floods and hurricanes in the next century, and undeniable scientific evidence that global warming is at the root of all this. I have no doubt whatsoever that it's Adam Smith's invisible hand and not the milk of human kindness which is making US President Barack Obama make statements about the well-being of the entire world. The problem, of course, is that the action of the invisible hand got so delayed that it has become anathema to both parties - the developed and developing countries. Harsh truths learnt the hard way!

So in summary, it appears that the world can take only a finite amount of material progress, for there can only be a finite amount of CO2 released into the atmosphere without burning up the planet. The USAs of the world have already taken such a big share of this pie that there's not much room for developing countries like India to do their 'developing' - not if this developing is done using any known methods of developing - which involve heating up the planet!

In such a situation, what is the position taken by developed countries? In the words of Sunita Narain, director of the Centre for Science and Environment, New Delhi,
The US’ intentions are not good for the climate. It has proposed the following: first, it will not take international commitments, but follow a domestic legislation route. So, it will act on emission targets legislated nationally. Second, the amount it will cut is nowhere close to what is required of it. The global consensus is industrialized countries need to cut greenhouse gas emissions at least 40 per cent over 1990 levels, to avert a 2C rise in temperature. But the US, after much fanfare on its Nobel-awarded president, has proposed a puny target of cutting 20 per cent over 2005 emission levels by 2020. This country’s greenhouse gas emissions have increased by 16 per cent between 1990 and 2005. Thus, it is saying it plans to do practically nothing but stabilize by 2020. Nothing to cut its gargantuan emission share—with some 5 per cent of the world’s people, it emits currently 18 per cent of global emissions. Forget, even, that this single country is responsible for 30 per cent of the global stock of emissions in the atmosphere. Criminal, when you think of the impact of climate change on the poor of the world.

Third, this puny target includes a huge amount of emission credits it will ‘buy’ from developing countries as offsets. In sum, it will actually continue to increase its emissions till 2017, at the very least. Doubly criminal and deplorable. Finally, it has made it amply clear it will do this little bit only if China and India and other ‘polluting’ nations are with it in this grand cop-out plan.
Fortunately, Jairam Ramesh, India's environment minister from Karnataka, is doing the right thing by putting his foot down on signing up for any legally binding emission cuts, although there have been some rumours about him yielding to pressure from the US. India should not yield to pressure from the US to cut down CO2 emissions. Actually, I'd like to see India take its famed role of the world's spiritual teacher at this time of need and pass on Sunita Narain's message that efficiency is useless if there's no sufficiency. This time India should take up its famed role, for those who have not the slightest authority are up to it now.

I believe the following shlokas from the Bhagavadgita (3.14, 3.15) throw light on what needs to be done here. Contact me for further discussion on how these shlokas are applicable in this context - I do not wish to spend too much time on them in this article.
ಅನ್ನಾದ್ಭವನ್ತಿ ಭೂತಾನಿ ಪರ್ಜನ್ಯಾದನ್ನಸಮ್ಭವಃ |
ಯಜ್ಞಾದ್ಭವತಿ ಪರ್ಜನ್ಯೋ ಯಜ್ಞಃ ಕರ್ಮ ಸಮುದ್ಭವಃ ||

ಕರ್ಮ ಬ್ರಹ್ಮೋದ್ಭವಂ ವಿದ್ಧಿ ಬ್ರಹ್ಮಾಕ್ಷರಸಮುದ್ಭವಮ್ ||
ತಸ್ಮಾತ್ ಸರ್ವಗತಂ ಬ್ರಹ್ಮ ನಿತ್ಯಂ ಯಜ್ಞೇ ಪ್ರತಿಷ್ಠಿತಮ್ ||

From food emerge the beings, and from rain food |
From yagna emerges rain, and yagna from karma ||

Karma emerges from brahma, and brahma from akshara |
Thus the omnipresent brahma is forever found in yagna ||
O Copenhagen! Will reason reign on the diplomats coming to thee to decide the future of this planet? 

For the confused few - a clarification on my use of Sanskrit

I can only pray for reason to dawn on those who are confused as to how I can quote a Sanskrit shloka and at the same time emphasize the need to reverse the trend to over-sanskritize Kannada. Sanskrit is good for what it is good for, not for what it isn't. Thus, I have no problem reading or quoting from Sanskrit texts where I need to, and simultaneously argue for removing Sanskrit's influence from where it doesn't belong - for example from Kannada grammar and in the indiscriminate coining of new Sanskrit words when it is both more sensible and easier to coin new Kannada words. And yes, the Tamils under the Dravidian Movement have erred by treating Sanskrit as untouchable. We should not make that mistake, of course. Sanskrit holds far too much wisdom for Kannadigas or anybody to ignore or reject.

23 comments:

ezhil said...

Hi,

I am a regular reader of this blog!!.

//the Tamils under the Dravidian Movement have erred by treating Sanskrit as untouchable. We should not make that mistake, of course. Sanskrit holds far too much wisdom for Kannadigas or anybody to ignore or reject. //

Joke of the century !!.It is true that sanskrit made tamil as untouchable,still tamil is not allowed inside temples in tamil nadu (situation is gradually changing).

Yes of course!! you will not make mistake because you the people (brahmins,aaryans) always trying to promote sanskrit as "deva basha" and our language is a "neesha basha".

Sanskrit is a language which already dead.I am just wondering why people like you trying to get alive that.

And then why are you always opposing "hindi" a derivative from the so called deva basha "Sanskrit".

I am just questioning your integrity over kannada patriotism because you are not a natural kannadiga.your (brahmins) roots are not here.

Here i can see some brahmins (particularly clangorous) always writing against tamils because of his root.

if brahmins are kannadigas then how they are every where in india existing?

they mixed the sanskrit with tamil and created languages like malayalam.

thats why tamil people cornered the brahmins where they should be and not allowed to speak for any tamil cause.

And finally i agree with your point //Sanskrit holds far too much wisdom for Kannadigas //
not for us. our language can stand alone and we never such wisdom from so called aaryans as we have enough from our language itself.

I have a lot to tell but short of time i just end here.if you give proper answers to my questions with minimum candid then i will come up with more examples.

ಕಿರಣ್ ರಾವ್ ಬಾಟ್ನಿ / Kiran Rao Batni said...

@ezhil,

I request you to ponder over the following points:

Opposition to over-Sanskritization of Kannada is different from opposition to the knowledge in Sanskrit. We oppose the over-Sanskritization of Kannada, not the knowledge in Sanskrit. We do not oppose knowledge from any source. We oppose impediments to the acquiring of Knowledge, which is what over-Sanskritization is.

The existence of some texts (or parts thereof) in Sanskrit which are not worth following does not necessitate a complete rejection of everything in Sanskrit, just as the existence of this article in English (which you clearly don't believe is worth following) does not necessitate the rejection of everything written in English.

We go the distance to pick that which is worth following and leave out that which is not. In fact, nothing in the world is worth completely rejecting. There is something to be learned from everything.

Our opposition to Hindi is only because it occupies linguistic registers which must rightfully be occupied by Kannada, and because the Indian Nation has tried to accelerate the mistake of imposing Hindi on Kannadigas.

One does not become a Brahmin by praising Sanskrit works, although many think so. Nor does one cease to remain a Kannadiga (or lose one's 'Kannadiga roots') by praising Sanskrit works, although some think so. Nor does one cease to remain a Brahmin by pointing out the limitations of Sanskrit.

One does not become a Sanskrit-hater by pointing out mistakes in a handful of Sanskrit words, or by arguing that Kannada is not born from Sanskrit, or by showing scientifically that Kannada grammar cannot be derived from Sanskrit's. Nor does being a Sanskrit-hater make one a better Kannadiga.

The essence of being a Kannadiga is to be able to make informed choices (as opposed to knee-jerk choices) in all the above. This is the essence of being a good scientist, too. This is the essence of being a good poet or artist, too.

maaysa said...

@Ezhil ( Please entire comment )

The sentiment expressed in this article cannot be taken as the opinion of entire Kannada people.

Amongst Kannadas too from the time of Kavirajamarga ( The oldest Kannada literature available ) to today opposition to Sanskrit has prevailed.

Kavirajamarga says mixing Sanskrit with Kannada makes Kannada sound harsh.
Andayya, Some Vachana people and Lankesh are other examples.

But...

Kannadas are different from Tamils. So the way adopted by Tamil will not suit for us..

This what Kiran said ( as per my understanding ). We need to make our own informed choices...

Kannada Brahmins are also Kannadas.. By alienating Kannada Brahmins, Kannada suffers more than it gains...

This is the big irony with Tamil people when a Tamil Brahmin gets a Nobel, they shout tearing their throat that "A Tamil got Noble" but in debate like this they say "Brahmins are not Tamils" :)

PS: Periyar Ramaswamy was an upper caste Kannadiga (Mostly Balijiga)... not a born Tamil.

I agree with Kiran, that we must alienate or harm Kannada Brahmins or Sanskrit Pundits who are Kannadigas. It is just like a Kannadiga harming another Kannadiga.

maaysa said...

Correction
"I agree with Kiran, that we must NOT alienate or harm Kannada Brahmins or Sanskrit Pundits who are Kannadigas. It is just like a Kannadiga harming another Kannadiga."

clangorous said...

@ ezhil,

Well Well Well... looks like you have got this amazing skill of branding peoples' caste just by looking at their comments and opinions. For the record, I am not a Brahmin and I am proud to identify myself as a Kannadiga Indian, nothing else.

Just because I made some valid arguments linguistically about Tamil , you are branding me as a brahmin. This shows the extent of hatred you have against a caste which has actually produced people like Basavanna who started revolution against casteism and went to the extent of creating a caste which could be embraced by any one.

Yes, I have argued through my opinions and comments against elite tamils who feel no other language is as great as theirs

Yes, I have ridiculed the blind love of "Super Stars" who are nothing but repeatitive gimmick stars

Yes, I would continue to argue against those elite tamils who feel vachanas by sharanas and tripadis by sarvajgna are nothing but the copy of their so called elite poet Thiruvalluvar

Yes, I would continue to argue against those tamils who oppose giving classical language status to Kannada and even go to the extent of arm twisting the center to change the criterias which was never considered when Tamil was given the classical status

Yes, I would continue to argue against those tamils who feel they are doing a favour by allowing us to use Kaveri water and those who deny our fundamental right over our share.

Yes, I would argue againt those tamils who oppose to any power/water projects undertaken well within Karnataka but at the same time cunningly build resorts in the name of drinking water projects on a territory which belongs to Karnataka (Hogenakkal - which itself is a kannada word and cannot be written in tamil the way its pronounced)

Yes, I have argued against those tamils who gangup against the natives of a place where they migrate to and even go to the extent of sidelining them through organised chauvanism

But at the same time , if you have cared to read all my comments I have praised the same Tamils for their unconditional love towards their identity and language.

I have quoted examples of the Anti-Hindi agitations which was spearheaded majorly by tamils.

I have appreciated TN and other states for safegaurding the interests of the natives when it comes to Jobs etc...

Time and again I have even applauded the two language formula which exists in TN and sometimes even felt jealous that such a setup doesnt exists in Karnataka

Even I have opposed Karnataka setting up a Sanskrit University when the need of the hour is to revitalise Kannada in its own territory


But looks like, as usual like a typical elite tamilian you have categorically read my comments through your tainted glass and even gone to the extent of branding me to a caste which I dont belong to.

ezhil said...

@Kiran

//Opposition to over-Sanskritization of Kannada is different from opposition to the knowledge in Sanskrit. We oppose the over-Sanskritization of Kannada, not the knowledge in Sanskrit //

ok i agree with you but i have one question for you What is the break even point for over-sanskritization ?

If you start lexicon for new science theories,concepts,technology to kannada then how will you create new words ? here the root words are most importantly required.

Already i could see so many words in kannada from sanskrit and sanskrit Tamil mix

i.e Hasi (hungry) derived from tamil word "Pasi" where as we dont have the pronunciation for "Ha" (sanskrit)we have only "Ka"
and also Haal or Haalu (i am not sure which is right) derived from Paal (milk) just replaced "Ha" for "Pa" i can give more but this is enough

Do you agree with that?

ezhil said...

@Maaysa

//Kavirajamarga // i dont have any knowledge but the name itself sounds like a sanskrit word?

Here i am not able to understand how a word derived from sanskrit opposed sanskritation

did you try to find out a word for "kavirajamarga" in kannada ?

//This is the big irony with Tamil people when a Tamil Brahmin gets a Nobel, they shout tearing their throat that "A Tamil got Noble" but in debate like this they say "Brahmins are not Tamils" :)//

A true Tamil never celebrated those brahmin nobel laureates it is the media dominated by brahmins used to celebrate.

Here true tamil means one should aware of who is true tamilian or not.

//PS: Periyar Ramaswamy was an upper caste Kannadiga (Mostly Balijiga)... not a born Tamil. //


It is a truely big irony that a man who sacrificed his entire life time against casteism identified by caste.

Yes he was born as a kannadiga (balija naidu) but he lived and sacrificed his life for tamil,tamil people and tamil nadu even he asked a separate home land for tamils.thats why tamil people still praise and celebrate periyar.

if he would have born karnataka and if he raised those issues here definitely he would have killed by the religious fundamentalists (that much fundamentalism prevailing here)

Also he proudly agreed that "I am tamilian" i can give you the proof if you want.

ezhil said...

@clangorous

I am sorry for the caste remarks even you dont belong to that

I made mistake by looking into the photo of yours with red colored naamam on your head.

//Basavanna who started revolution against casteism and went to the extent of creating a caste which could be embraced by any one //
The sentence contradicts itself how ?

he fought against casteism and created a caste ?

Is it a lingayat caste ? i am sorry to mention the name but i dont have any knowledge abt him (but i read some thing in tamil articles)
If anybody hurt,sorry

//Yes, I have argued through my opinions and comments against elite tamils who feel no other language is as great as theirs
//
If any tamil argued like that he might not have enough knowledge abt the languages but we have some pride abt but thats not a hatred view of other languages.

//Yes, I would continue to argue against those elite tamils who feel vachanas by sharanas and tripadis by sarvajgna are nothing but the copy of their so called elite poet Thiruvalluvar //

it is absolutely meaning less.both the poets lived in entirely different periods and even we don't have enough proof when thiruvalluvar was born and lived.the period is unknown
so the argument is baseless and again he might not have in depth knowledge on both the poets.

//Yes, I would continue to argue against those tamils who oppose giving classical language status to Kannada //

One lawyer's suit in chennai high court never be a voice of all tamils. this is also baseless argument.

//cunningly build resorts in the name of drinking water projects on a territory which belongs to Karnataka (Hogenakkal - which itself is a kannada word and cannot be written in tamil the way its pronounced)
//

it seems you dont have in depth knowledge in this issue.
there is no place to build resorts.the water will be supplied entire krishnagiri district as the ground water containsg higher fluoride level and creating water related diseases there.

it is the third world mind set that fighting for silly issues .
it is the habit if anyone come to our homes first give a cup of water.if any body argue against a drinking water project then should check out they are human beings or not ?
we never opposed bangalore water supply project

ezhil said...

"Hogenekkal" if you argue with the names then we argue for kollegal which will not be pronunced as "hollegal"

the border issue was over when the linguistic based states separation.if you want to raise then there will be more claims based on the names.
we cant claim places belong to other states because of their names.this is what happening in belgaum as per my understanding
I cant understand why you people allowing to call "mumbai karnataka"," hyderabad karnataka "

//
Yes, I have argued against those tamils who gangup against the natives of a place where they migrate to and even go to the extent of sidelining them through organised chauvanism
//

minority union is natural in everywhere look at muslims and christians they always united in a hindu dominated society.
because they think they need some protection for their rights.

but in this case i agree with your views where i think our peoples are bit aggressive in a place they migrate and not learning local languages but this is when it comes to earlier stages of migration to bangalore were uneducated labourers migrated and they were unable to learn but now the situation is totally different where tamil people learning kannada very well.

Finally i would like to say to entire kannada people that we are not a potential threat kannada or karnataka where we people dont have enough money power or population like north indians or telugu (now i see the karnataka politics is dominated by andhra guys mostly reddys and they are able to change the kannada ministers.

why KRV never raised a voice against telugu people who trying to dominate ?

Northees dominating in business front

Are you able to see only tamils ?

or as you said are you looking tamils with tainted glasses?

I can give more examples but i think this is more enough.

I will come back with more after your feedback

Thanks..!

clangorous said...

@ ezhil

//I made mistake by looking into the photo of yours with red colored naamam on your head.

The Photo on the blog connected to my profile is not mine, its our college blog and person in the photo is an Iyengar, a proud tamilian (I dont know why you outcast your own brothers in the name of cast)

//he fought against casteism and created a caste ?
Yes, a caste which any one could embrace, but unfortunately that itself has become a caste . Anyways I do not care too much about any one's caste, so let me not digress.

//One lawyer's suit in chennai high court never be a voice of all tamils. this is also baseless argument.

Your beloved CM and the likes of you could have always asked that lawyer to withdraw his petition. Why is your CM not doing that, now that Tiruvalluvar and Sarvagjna's statues have been unveiled by each other's states ?

//it seems you dont have in depth knowledge in this issue.
there is no place to build resorts.the water will be supplied entire krishnagiri district as the ground water containsg higher fluoride level and creating water related diseases there.

it is the third world mind set that fighting for silly issues .
it is the habit if anyone come to our homes first give a cup of water.if any body argue against a drinking water project then should check out they are human beings or not ?
we never opposed bangalore water supply project

If thats the case, why is TN not revealing the complete details of the Project even when asked by Karnataka ?. Why is TN not agreeing for a joint survey of the borders .. ? (simple.. they know they have en roached upon Karnataka's territory). You still feel I do not have in-depth knowledge about this ?

Why would TN oppose a drinking project to Bengaluru when they have made it their second home ?

Why did TN oppose Shivanasamudra Power Project which was well within Karnataka ?

Yeah, these are silly issues only when Kannadigas raise their protest, but Tamils can raise their protests even on behalf of terrorist organisations like LTTE. Bangalore Tamil Sangham goes out of the way to help tamils in Srilanka but they are blind to the floods which happened in Karnataka which has given them their livelihood.

No one would give even a drop of water when their own family do not have water to drink (I assume you know Kaveri's tribunal one-sided verdict , how much did TN get ? and how much did Karnataka get ?... it was not even 50-50)

Coming to Kollegala, its very much a Kannada word. I dont understand your point : hollegala ? . Both "Ka" and "Ga" in kollegala are written using the same letter in Tamil, So it cannot be written the way its pronounced (can never be a tamil word)

//minority union is natural in everywhere look at muslims and christians they always united in a hindu dominated society.
because they think they need some protection for their rights.

Isn't it any migrant's responsibility to get in to the mainstream of the society they migrate to ... ? . You feel its minority union...? its minority ganging up against the majority to an extent that they are denied their own rights/share in their own land. (Can't even imagine Kannadigas or any one else doing the same in TN)

//(now i see the karnataka politics is dominated by andhra guys mostly reddys and they are able to change the kannada ministers.

Wait and watch, Kannadigas will show BJP its place, they would be thrown out..

//why KRV never raised a voice against telugu people who trying to dominate ?

I guess you have categorically ignored the protests by lot of pro-kannada organisations against the Reddy Brothers

KRV raises voice against any one who dicriminates against Kannada, Kannadigas and Karnataka. You have again ignored the protests against Railway exams dominated by Biharis. KRV was the first to raise this issue even before MNS and others joined. Its only because of their continuous efforts now people can take Railways exams in regional languages as well.

clangorous said...

//i.e Hasi (hungry) derived from tamil word "Pasi" where as we dont have the pronunciation for "Ha" (sanskrit)we have only "Ka"
and also Haal or Haalu (i am not sure which is right) derived from Paal (milk) just replaced "Ha" for "Pa" i can give more but this is enough

As far as I remember reading on some linguistic research the word "Paal" is derived from Halegannada and has been adapted by Tamil. See again, you feel only Kannada has taken from Tamil but not vice versa. Fact is both languages have influenced each other.

ಕಿರಣ್ ರಾವ್ ಬಾಟ್ನಿ / Kiran Rao Batni said...

@ Ezhil,

I'm glad you are not closed to sources of knowledge. No people desirous of living long on this planet can afford to be!

Your question about the "break-even point" is very pertinent. However, I beg to differ on the approach of percentages as in claiming, for e.g., that "the break-even point is achieved when the percentage of Sanskrit words in Kannada is X%". These things are not controlled by percentages.

It is not just nonsensical but also the epitome of self-aggrandizement for any committee of a handful to decide the percentage of words to be borrowed from this or that language. Often, those numbers get decided based on personal biases of those on the committee who do not necessarily ahve any real grounding in the particular fields of learning which need word-importation.

It is when such a committee thinks in terms of percentages that it is tempted to make the number of borrowed words 0% -- thereby cutting the natural bonds between languages and stopping the free flow of ideas and objects between cultures.

One must appreciate the fact that languages do not import words alone. With the words are imported the objects or ideas which those words connote. When it comes to spirituality, many words (and thereby objects and ideas) have been borrowed by languages all over the world from Sanskrit. Similarly, languages all over the world have borrowed words of science and technology (and thereby objects and ideas) from English and a couple other European languages.

Therefore, the correct question to ask is "What method must be adopted in coining new words for science and technology in Kannada?". If you are willing to ask the question in this format, I will be glad to continue this discussion.

Your understanding that Kannada has many words from Sanskrit is true, but applies mostly to written Kannada. Spoken Kannada is much removed from Sanskrit. This shows, to those who are interested in seeing, that the vehicle through which the influence of Sanskrit spread to Kannada is literature (and not the spoken word).

Regarding your claim that Kannada has words of Tamil origin, I can only point out that there is no proof that those words were first spoken by Tamils! There is equal reason for a Kannadiga to claim that Tamil has Kannada words such as "pasi", "paal" -- since such words are found in Halagannada (old Kannada). If you pay any respect to the field of linguistics, you'll see that they have erected a so-called "Proto-Dravidian language" from which both Tamil and Kannada were derived.

The unscientific beliefs and pride of many Tamils about their language stem from political programming under the Dravidian movement. Similarly, the unscientific beliefs and pride of many Sanskrit-enthusiasts about Sanskrit stem from superstitions deep-routed in Hindu cultures.

It is my humble appeal to both Tamils and Sanskrit-enthusiasts to not let reason go down the drain when it comes to understanding languages.

maaysa said...

This Ezhil is a dickhead.

Tamil Oldest literary works too have Sanskrit names.. Shipadhikaaram, tol-kappiyam( where kappiyam is from kaavyam )..

Look at the Tamil Kings' name Raja Raja Chola, Rajendra Chola, Mahendra varma etc etc..

Then regard pa to ha conversion.. it is clearly marked linguitically that the words starting with Pa in Halagannada( old Kannada ) transformed in to Ha in the Nadukannada( medieval kannada )..

May be transformation is like pa => fa => ha, which has happened with many langauges ex: Japan => nihon..


Do today Tamils speak the Tamil of Sangam Period? Languages change both phonetically, grammatically as well as vocabularily by accepting loanword and loan grammar .. !

Tamil-nadu chief ministers name is Karunanidhi 100% Sanskrit..

Karnataka Chief ministers name is yedeyoorappa ( ede + oor + appa ) .. 100% ultra pure Kannada.. so what? :)

ezhil said...

@clangorous !!

I am very sorry to you clangorous. you are jack of all but master of none.you have to read more or need more home work before arguing to any such big issues.

//why is TN not revealing the complete details of the Project even when asked by Karnataka ?. Why is TN not agreeing for a joint survey of the borders .. ? (simple.. they know they have en roached upon Karnataka's territory).//

Why we have to share details to karnataka now?

it was discussed and agreed long back by both govts for both schemes. we delayed to initiate the project and karnataka completed on time.that is the problem.

//Why would TN oppose a drinking project to Bengaluru when they have made it their second home ? //

Second home ? what is the meaning for this how can we claim other state's city to ours second home ?

it is a myth spread to all kannadigas that there are only less number of kannadigas (ignorable ?) living tamilnadu and tamils occupied bengaluru.

the kannadigas living in most of the western and southern districts bordered with western ghats.around 30 to 50 lacs approx.they are enjoying full freedom and have thousands of acres ,properties etc etc.
we never treated them separately till now and they are able to do everything there.but compare to bengaluru,most of the tamils are living in hell like conditions (im saying abt poor migrant construction and blue collared laborers and easily targetted when any sensitive issues arises like kaveri or any celebrities deaths )

We are ready if any order from both the govts that all the tamils should vacate from karnataka. and kannadigas from tamil nadu ?

can you imagine ? is it possible ?
then there will be more questions of integrity of india and nationalism

i dont know why you people only always shouting that natives are sidelined.

how can minorities sideline majority people ?

this is where i am totally confused and annoyed.

i couldn't see any such voices from Andhra,Kerala,TN..

if they sidelined you,how did you allow them ?

or else you missed out the rope tied in the head and hold the tail ?

//but Tamils can raise their protests even on behalf of terrorist organisations like LTTE //

i think this is out of context to our discussion since you dont know what is happening in Eezham (srilanka) completely.

//you know Kaveri's tribunal one-sided verdict , how much did TN get ? and how much did Karnataka get ?... it was not even 50-50) //

Actually we lost around 13 tmc from what we were provided in the interim judgement (205).

Actual share of kaveri water is

Karnataka -270
Tamilnadu -192
Kerala -30
puduchery -7 tmc

the tribunal included the rain water on the way to stanley resorvoir to TN's account that is 10 tmc then actual count is only 182 tmc ft only.

here what is the point in speaking abt equal share or TN getting more ?

ezhil said...

@maaysa

This is absolutely an escapism.if you are not able to counter the points mentioned by me please do not divert by making personal or character assassinations (like dickhead..etc).

it is not Shipadhikaaram, tol-kappiyam .

it is Silappathikaaram,tholkaappiyam.

Thol means ancient and kaapiyam derived from kaappu (defend)+ iyam (means source of knowledge)

do not create meanings for the words already has pure tamil meaning.
Raja Raja Chola, Rajendra Chola, Mahendra varma

Raja Rajan supported Sanskrit thats why till now we have to fight against sanskrit.
Mahendra varma pallavan was not a tamil king he was an outsider.

Halagannada or Halegannada itself a derived word from sanskrit.

Here is how

Hala it derived from Pazhaya (means old in tamil) here we need to pronunce zh as la replace pa to ha again

Pazhaya -> Hazhaya -> Halaya -> Hala

Ask anybody expert in this context.

ezhil said...

@ all

Please refer these links

http://tamil.berkeley.edu/Tamil%20Chair/TamilClassicalLanguage/TamilClassicalLgeLtr.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages

It declares tamil is the oldest language and independent.

It was told by an English man (George L. Hart) not by an elite tamilian influenced by dravidian movement and he also stated that the English and French not able to claim a classical language status it is because a language borrowed words from other languages can't be a classical language.

@Kiran,

"What method must be adopted in coining new words for science and technology in Kannada?

Yes we can continue from here.Now can you please tell me how to create words for science and technology in kannada?

If you start searching for root words then it will end up with sanskrit or tamil or mixup both.

There was no language called proto-dravidian it is nothing but tamil.

If it was existent then it might be a spoken language in some where in the dravidian region.

The approach purely scientific and the unique problem is your superior complex doesnot allow to think beyond the kannada,kannadiga,karnataga limitattions

But i have no such kind of superior complex.I just bought two kannada literature books (translated versions in tamil).

The first one is U.R Ananthamurthy's "Bhava" (pirappu-"birth")
and the second one is Maranam matrum (means "death and...") a short stories collection of

Yashwantha siddala (correct me if i am wrong bcos it is in tamil)

S.Diwakar,
A.K.Ramanujan,
P.C.Desai,
U.R Ananthamurthy
Poornachandra Tejaswi.

To gain in depth knowledge of kannada culture and tradition.
translated by Nanjundan (Statistics professor, Bangalore University ,a tamilian hailed from Salem,TN,and prefaced by Basavaraj Kalgudi,Joint Professor,Kannada Research Centre,BU.

This kind of constructive approach will help both of us but you always with pessimistic views thats the problem.

Thanks for you all guys!!!

This is how i am going beyond my tamil,tamilnadu,tamilian limitations

Moving forward will discuss more :)

ezhil said...

Correction

Halagannada or Halegannada itself a derived word from tamil not sanskrit

maaysa said...

@Ezhil

Halagannada is from poorva Halagannada which is from proto-Dravidian.

There are 4 stages of Kannada.. read.. read..

Don't be a jerk.

elango said...

we feel shame when we are unable to use our own languague in our own state.you can use any languague additionaly even it is hindi or english.But deny the right to use our languague in our state is a crime of central goverment.if the central goverment can not provide its services in local languague it should abanden the idea of united india

clangorous said...

@ ezhil,
Well... I never claimed to be a jack of all traits or master of all or none. I am just putting across my point of view... . It is you who is claiming to be knowing everything by statements like : "I am very sorry to you clangorous. you are jack of all but master of none.you have to read more or need more home work before arguing to any such big issues".

Looks like you again have categorically filtered by questions :

You did not answer to : Why is TN not agreeing for a joint survey of the borders .. ? (simple.. they know they have en roached upon Karnataka's territory) as this is a border issue

//Why we have to share details to karnataka now? - Cause Karnataka has shared info on the Bengaluru Project. Also this is not just drinking water but interstate border issue as well.

//the kannadigas living in most of the western and southern districts bordered with western ghats.around 30 to 50 lacs approx.they are enjoying full freedom and have thousands of acres ,properties etc etc.
we never treated them separately till now and they are able to do everything there//

Cause Kannadigas adapt to the conditions wherever they are. Most of the Kannadigas on the border areas you have mentioned know not just Kannada.. they have learnt Tamil, Malayalam as well. But thats not the case with the migrants coming in to Karnataka/Bengaluru.. they try to impose their language or culture on to the natives. (easiest examples are names of the areas which are skewed so much that they have become the actual names : Malleshwara has become Malleswaram...etc).

//how can minorities sideline majority people ?

this is where i am totally confused and annoyed.

i couldn't see any such voices from Andhra,Kerala,TN..

if they sidelined you,how did you allow them ?//

You wouldnt hear voices from Andhra, Kerala, TN etc as 80 % of the jobs go the natives there unlike Karnataka where natives always get the raw deal even though they have the skills and capability .




Since this discussion was about tamils , I mentioned them wherein actually all migrants to Bengaluru gangup against Kannadigas. Out of them people who form the strongest gangs are tamils, mallus, northies

//but Tamils can raise their protests even on behalf of terrorist organisations like LTTE //

//i think this is out of context to our discussion since you dont know what is happening in Eezham (srilanka) completely//

Again you categorically copied whatever you wanted to answer.. what about this part : "Bangalore Tamil Sangham goes out of the way to help tamils in Srilanka but they are blind to the floods which happened in Karnataka which has given them their livelihood" when lot of Kannadigas went out of their way to help during Tsunami in TN

//Actual share of kaveri water is

Karnataka -270
Tamilnadu -192
Kerala -30
puduchery -7 tmc//

Yes actual share is that but what was the tribunal verdict :

419 - TN, 270 - KA... (Isnt this unfair, biased ?)

http://www.thehindu.com/2007/02/20/stories/2007022002650500.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaveri_River_Water_Dispute

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/feb/05cau.htm

Please answer to these :

Why is TN keen only on water from Hogenakkal wherein Mettur Dam is much closer to Krishnagiri, Dharmapuri ?

What about the enroachment of Hosur by TN ? (Dont tell me that even this is my imagination ?)

ಕಿರಣ್ ರಾವ್ ಬಾಟ್ನಿ / Kiran Rao Batni said...

@Ezhil,

I have answered that question in Kannada on our Kannada blog at this location:

http://enguru.blogspot.com/2008/12/padagalalli-elige-mattu-hanchike.html

Please excuse me for not having the time to translate it to English. I'm not sure if you can read Kannada. If you cannot, may I request you to get in touch with one of your Kannadiga friends?

Let me also say that your comments about the high-handedness, ancientness, originality and purity of Tamil stem once again from political programming under the Dravidian movemen References you quote to establish the above "traits" of Tamil don't make much of a difference. Nor does the skin-color of the authors (Surprisingly, Hart doesn't say what you accuse him of saying - that Tamil is the oldest language. He only says it is "Extremely old". Proof of political programming in you!).

There is equal reason for a Kannadiga to claim that "There is no language called as Proto-Dravidian. It is nothing but Kannada!". But Kannadigas don't do it because it would be as stupid as claiming that "There is no flower called as Rose. It is nothing but a White Rose".

However, I definitely agree that there should be a good deal of collaboration between Dravidian languages.

elango said...

tamils asked for classical languague status and got it.then you also wanted the same.tamils are fighting for the official languague status at center.you all are keeping silence.it is a constructive fight why don't you join rather than asking for the same after tamils get it by their fight.

Jai Veerupaksha said...

@Ezhil,

The bigger difference in the lines of thinking between the 2 sections- those brainwashed by the Dravidian idealogy and the ones who haven't is that in case of the latter, there is still scope for evoluton. i.e new or better ideas/thoughts from eslewhere getting adaopted that further enhance the outcome of that language/race over a period of time. Though evolution is a diverging process where when looks at the % of an element / language against what it was, when it started, it could show a small % but still that was larger than all other influencers that were introduced if this is a controlled process. In such cases, the identity gets enriched..... akin to a flame burning brighter due to right quantum of influencers introduced

However if the influencers are not controlled/regulated, its likes talking about a gust blowing off a flame. In such cases, it is possible that eventually the influencers as a % may eventually become larger than the original element/language itself. While one may say that the final outcome is rich, the issue is one of lost identity itself.This is a case where there is too much of openness to the extent of forgetting what one is. It is possible that some Kannadiga's are headed in that direction. These are those who lack a scientific temper to reason things out and absorb what is required for taking evolution to the next level w/o losing out on identity.However the likes of Banavasi BaLaga want to instill this reasoning power even while remaining open minded to be able to identify what should be assimilated and what should be excluded.

Now the Dravidian movement's approach was to cut off the role of influencers and drive out those who it thought could collude with the influencers for religious/caste reasons. This was done administratively even if it would mean a slower pace of evolution. Obviously this would definitely ensure that the identity of the original element/language undergoes little change and remains intact. Tamil has therefore been able to retain a strong identity with a smaller influencer %.

So are Tamilian's (influenced by Dravidian philosophy) on a better path or are the others.In terms of identity, yes maybe. But in terms of richness/knowledge, only a linguistic group that uses a scientific temper in assimilating the right things and excluding redundancies for its language is better off. Kannada/Kannadigas while being open to external influences cannot necessarily be referred to as having this Scientific temper currently and may be undue Sanskritisation/Hindification/Anglicisation could be akin to the gust I mentioned earlier. But when taken in the right measures, in the right areas, any language will definitely eveolve w/o a loss of identity.This is what I believe Kiran has been trying to explain....and this is not between Tamil and Kannada. If Tamilians as a community have to emulate the German's or the Israeli's or the Japanese, such a scientific temper is mandated and this cannot be replaced by cutting off external influences.The West keenly studies Sanskrit /Tamil/ Kannada/ Hebrew or even Latin with this temperament and they are the ones who will benefit more than either Kannadigas/Tamilians who will continue to indulge in this one upmanship for historical reasons and never once use scientific reason to look at the point that the likes of Kiran are driving home.

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